On Duelist

[Juriel]

From what info's currently available (from NWN2 or from PnP SRD), the Duelist doesn't require being unarmored, or having a high Int bonus for most of its benefits. So you could be a clumsy brutish retard, wearing plate, with a tower shield, and still use their Haste-six-times-a-day and damage bonuses with a rapier all day long, it seems.

So, unless your Dex+Int bonuses are better than +12 (full plate + tower shield) in total, there's no point not to, since your AC with any kind of normal Dex+Int will be pretty bad (since the stat-boosting spells last a short while in 3.5). All you miss is using Parry.

Taking 10 levels in a class whose concept you go against would be a bit silly, but if you really wanted to be self-Hasted and dealing 3d6+Str damage with each rapier blow, it seems you could. There's nothing in NWN2 write-ups or the SRD saying wearing armor in any way hinders the Duelist...

[Castian]

You need to read the specific feats. Canny defence, enhanced mobility and precise strike, all require you to be unarmoured and not using a shield or off-hand weapon.

[Juriel]

Ah, Precise Strike requires not using a shield. Very well, scratch the shield from the list.

Full plate and +1 from Dex is still better than most scores unarmored Duelists can muster up. Would need to get +10 from Dex and Int bonuses to be better than using armor. So, Canny Defense doesn't count, because wearing armor is better AC (unless one plays a module with +stat items, or mixes in Monk levels for Wis bonus).

Enhanced Mobility doesn't matter, since it's AC vs AoO...ah wait. Amusingly, this is one thing that would benefit the armored version, since the unarmored will have to have high Dex and Tumble ANYway, and thus won't ever suffer AoOs. But, I don't think not getting any AC against a rare AoO is much of a penalty, since you'll have a higher AC all the time than ever without armor.

But thanks for pointing out the bit about Precise Strike. This means that going for a full-plated Gnome Duelist is wiser, since you can't use a shield anyway. And that way you get to wield a rapier two-handed (so get 1.5x Str damage bonus) and +1 to AC from size.

:P

[Castian]

You can't use duelist feats with an off-hand weapon. Or a two-handed weapon if you want to play a gnome duelist you would need to use a dagger, shortsword or small pick if they are in the game.Also precise strike maxes out at 2d6 not 3.

You should also bear in mind that canny defence includes both your dex and int bonuses. Which heavy armour would take away. I play a duelist on a server currently and he gets +4 wearing rings from int +5 (six at next level) if buffed and has +5 (more if buffed) from his dex. The ac thing is no different from monks essentially canny defence is a great feat. I don't know about the haste thing and whether that feat is conditional upon you wearing no armour I would guess it would be.

Essentially the class has been implemented as the PnP version, I think you are nitpicking at small fairly irrelevant points.

[Juriel]

Small Duelists can use a rapier two-handed and still use Duelist stuff, a dev has said on NWN2.

And yes, Canny Defense is okay, IF you have stat-boosting magic items, as I said - in the absence of those, it seems you get better AC just by wearing full plate, and don't even lose anything real for it (except for the ability to Parry). Of course, I haven't seen it in-game, just saying what the write-ups so far have seemed to say. And the SRD.

And my 3d6 was 'base rapier damage + 2d6 special damage' thingie.

Hey, I do hope for an unarmored fighter class. I'm just commenting on theoretical stuff, based on what info there is openly available at the moment. And it seems that unarmored class is worse if they are, in fact, unarmored - or at least have to give up a lot in other areas to reach a comparable-to-armor AC, while there's seemingly nothing to keep them from wearing armor right away. And they are not comparable to Monks, who get AC bonuses as part of levelling up.

[Neg]

I know that by stereotype a duellist should be a ponce in a frilly shirt, but I can't see anything wrong with a duellist being heavily armoured if that's his game. Especially not a gnome. If there is some way that gnomes can be an uber powerful melee class I'm all for it. :D

[Castian]

Well it is a bit silly when it is obviously a dex focused class. It does not have to be a swashbuckler, it can be a dagger wielding rogue, or short sword user too. Essentially your reflex is your primary save and if you have rogue levels things like evasion are great. Their feats are geared towards precision over power, and speed over constitution. Weapon finesse duelists work and work well.

Requirements to be a duelist are, dodge, mobility and weapon finesse I think. As well as tumble and perform. So if you want to make a tank duelist you can but you are wasting a few feats to take the class.

[tlantl]

http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2GameInfo.Detail&id=16&category_select_id=3

something to think about
Seems like a waste of a good fighter. Valuable skill points being wasted on tumble, valuable feats wasted on weapon finesse, valuable ability score bonuses wasted to take advantage of ?

Building a fighter rogue would make as much sense and get the sneak attack bonuses sooner. merely flank some one for the sneak attacks. The extra attack gained by the haste is easier to gain through two weapon fighting feat and fighter levels. Now the aforementioned fighter rogue would find a benefit. a fighter with Heavy armor seems to be a waste of feats (both wasted and never to be earned) and money wasted in skill points for very little benefit.

seems like a waste of time to me.

[Castian]

I treat it as a nice alternative to the standard. Rogue/fighters work very well no doubt about that. Duelist is one of my favourite classes to play but I like old swashbuckler movies, the Muskateers, Pirates and things are all fun concepts to play. The Duelist gets a good balance of things, nice skills, some nice feats, fighter ab progression and a D10 with primary saves as reflex. Also remember int is a primary stat for duelist so along with and extra 2 skill points a level than fighter, you have a bit to spread about.

The one I play currently on a NWN server using prestige classes fits in quite nicely he holds up alright despite the canny defence feat not working on there, with it he would be even better. Primarily you have to decide whether a PrC adds falvour to your characters and the concept you have, and will it be fun to play. Not is it the most powerful build I can get. You just wont get as much out of them if you don't.