On DM client and clothes

[Juriel]

Two second-hand comments...


On DMC:

"Fergus said that funding stopped totally on shipping to game for publication. There is a month between pressing and actual store sales. In that month Obsidian will first bug squish and IF there is time they will try to make a DM client. If the bug squish is too demanding, then the DM client will not see any work in that month. After that, no funding."

"Once sales start Obsidian will not see a dime of funding for nine or more months, from NWN2 sales. I was told these are the cold hard facts. Fergus said they did not understand the importance of the DM client for nearly two years and had not thought of producing it – BUT – now they do understand how important it is and wish to make one but time and resources are running out."


On clothes:

"Obsidian avoided answering the clothing question over and over. I asked about clothing, discussing the importance of the tailor and customizing clothing in my NWN PW Annakolia CEP and Annakolia Spelljammer. They avoided talking about it and changed the subject over and over."

[swanhilde]

I thought it had been confirmed that appearance crafting (a la HotU) wasn't in?

Fergus said they did not understand the importance of the DM client for nearly two years and had not thought of producing it – BUT – now they do understand how important it is and wish to make one but time and resources are running out.
If this is true, then this is a very large WTF. Did Bioware tell them it was a single player game with NOTHING ELSE to it when they passed on the NWN torch?

I guess there is no choice but to wait and see.

[Tyndareus]

This suggests to me that they are going to try and 'rush' the bug work and we will end up with a very buggy game.

[Dolorous Edd]

If those are accurate then things are going to get screwed up badly...

[Juriel]

The likely lack of the DM client I don't personally see as all that big a deal, because I'm mainly interested in PWs. Scripted quests are much better content for those than randomly wandering DMs, anyway, IMO.

I'm just sad over the tailoring thing. Sure, it might be old news, but it's the first I come across it. Ah well, gives a chance to include fancy clothes as loot to quest for, so it's not all bad. Except if the module is built by people with no sense of style, of course.

[swanhilde]

I've actually long missed the pre-crafting days of BD1, despite absolutely adoring being able to clothe my characters suitably. I don't see it as a big loss, myself.

[Viconius]

What is your source, Juriel?

About clothing
If clothing items are made of parts like in NWN1, I see no reason why this feature would be less in NWN2.

DM Client
The likely lack of the DM client I don't personally see as all that big a deal, because I'm mainly interested in PWs. Scripted quests are much better content for those than randomly wandering DMs, anyway, IMO.

I think I could not disagree with you more. NWN is at many levels the DM client. Scripted quests are ok to pass the time, but real meat of the server needs to come from interesting world that can actually change when one puts role-playing effort to it.

[Tyndareus]

The clothing crafting aspect has always, to me, seemed to detract from the overall game. While it's nice to be able to make this or that or whatever style of outfit you like, I think it tends to get some players focusing inward rather than outward at the game and adventures at large. We've all seen people who spend far more time making new outfits than looking for adventure.

I'm pretty sure that people who don't use the DM client will feel the effect of not having one just as much as those who do use it. A good coded module is fine, but good dynamic story telling will suffer greatly. I doubt we'll see too many modules that have the necessary code/dialogue/etc. built in to them to offer 1/10th of what a game with a DM client can do.

[Viconius]

Directly from J.E. Sawyer (Lead Designer):


We still do plan to release a DM client. Two programmers are scheduled to work on it after release candidates are handled. That doesn't mean that it's definitely going to get done or that it's definitely going to be at X level of quality by Y date, but it certainly is not cut.

Ferg tends to be very conservative with what he promises about features, so it often comes across as grim news.


http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewdevposts.html?topic=494248&forum=95

[Martinus]

As for outfits, well, I'm with Swan on that - I actually kinda liked the pre-crafting BD1 as well, with cloth merchant arrivals being "events" and cash sinks at the same time.

That being said, without the DM client, there will be no such thing as cloth merchant events in BD1, am I right?

I'm considering cancelling my preorder. :(

[Martinus]

Scripted quests are much better content for those than randomly wandering DMs, anyway, IMO.
You must be joking. All the best stuff on BD was from "randomly wandering DMs". :confused:

[Juriel]

What is your source, Juriel?
As I said, second-hand account of what people answered to a guy's questions at the con. So take with a grain of salt, but neither is an actually surprising bit of information. I just found it interesting if the stated funding model holds true.

I think I could not disagree with you more. NWN is at many levels the DM client. Scripted quests are ok to pass the time, but real meat of the server needs to come from interesting world that can actually change when one puts role-playing effort to it.
And see, I think PWs' main meat comes from the other player characters and how people relate to one another. I've found DM quests to be quirky sideshows that amuse very few people at a time, and that they are too often about waiting for the DM to answer something or guessing what his intentions are.

And if people do a scripted quest or something else important that scripts keep a tally of, there's nothing stopping the DMs from changing the world in toolset the next day. It's not like they can do that with the DM client on the fly, either.

DM client just means that one can...
a) have DM-guided adventure modules for a few friends at a time (losing which is a bit of a bother, but the NWN model never was that good for actual role-playing that may go in surprising directions, since everything needs to be ready)
b) randomly wander around PWs entertaining two people for one time, instead of using that time to create scripted content that will amuse tens of people for the next year.

That's where I'm coming from.

And I know many DMs enjoy wandering around the servers rather than scripting. Perhaps they should then just be players, and not DMs, if they cannot do that. For now.

Anyway, you could still make special DM PCs for that wandering, that have in their inventory special DM tool wands for summoning monsters/items/placeables, and the PC model would be one without any visible bodyparts, or an incredibly fast and invisible ten-pixel-sized ferret...if you really really wanted to have a faux DM client at your disposal. I just honestly think that for PWs, things that don't rely on a DM's typing speed, attention span, online hours and preferences towards players, are better.

[Juriel]

That being said, without the DM client, there will be no such thing as cloth merchant events in BD1, am I right?
Hmm? DM-created PC, that triggers a script in the module that leads them to a room filled with premade dresses/gives them a custom script tool wand that summons items. Then they go and sell stuff to people...

[Martinus]

Personally, I'm more surprised than dismayed/outraged that they didn't include the DM Client. I mean seriously, what were they thinking? Where were they for the last 3 years of the game development? Not to mention that a DM Client is basically a glorified cheat code console so it is not that hard to implement.

[Castian]

DMs are essential to a good PW. Without them the world stagnates and everyone gets bored. People constantly make new characters trying to find something new and character relationships die off. DMs have to be their to feed plots and keep things fresh.

I cannot see the lack of a client being a huge problem at first, it should be out by the time PWs are up and running. There is a lot of scaremongering that goes on and not all "journalistic" accounts are reliable. Clothing crafting will be done via scripting I expect.

[Juriel]

DMs have to be their to feed plots and keep things fresh.
No, there has to be new CONTENT there to feed plots and keep things fresh. This content can be new scripted quests, different money sinks, totally new features like customizable own housing...

Active DMs are a nice bonus, but they are an occasional random event, not a replacement for proper module design and development.

[Dolorous Edd]

I cannot see the lack of a client being a huge problem at first, it should be out by the time PWs are up and running. There is a lot of scaremongering that goes on and not all "journalistic" accounts are reliable. Clothing crafting will be done via scripting I expect.
I agree that not all is lost yet, but Obsidian definitely aren't putting down people's fears. The existance of the DM client definitely isn't clear at the moment.
And I wholeheartedly agree regarding the absolute necessity of DMs for a PW. Even if it's not a grand plot, a DM's influence on a simple scripted quest every so often can add a whole lot to a server.

[Blark]

Scripted quests are a great thing in any PW IMO, but the need for a DM is there also. I look at DMs as being the environment, adding a little of this and that. It doesn't always have to be a large event every time they log in but keeping the small things alive is just as good.
To have a game without a DM client....well, they might as well ship the game with out any swords to use IG either.
I do have hope that they'll figure everything out, guess we'll just have to wait and see.

[palmer_eldritch]

On clothes - I'm sure they have said in the past that the appearance of an item can be changed when it is first made by a crafter, but not after that.

If that is correct then it is just a scripting issue, as you can easily get around it (just make a crafting routine which lets you make a "new" item while destroying the old one and copying any properties across).

On DM clients - another reason you need it on a server is for the administrative side. A huge amount of changes were made on BD because of issues I picked up just by watching people play - monsters that were too easy or hard, areas that didn't work well because of pathfinding etc.

I didn't run quests but I was on as a DM a lot, just watching what people did and how things worked. You need that - you can't get the feedback you need from forum posts.

Also, to be very blunt, you need to be able to catch people cheating and behaving badly. BD had probably the best community of any server, but even on BD that was an issue, and it was probably less of an issue because we were quite good at stamping on it.

I realise it also has a downside, such as DMs hassling players for having "bad roleplaying" attributes or skills etc. Some people will think that's a good thing, but I think it is a downside. However, there are also often very good reasons why you need to teleport someone to the DM room sometimes and have a quiet word with the penguin stick in your hand . . .

I wouldn't get too worked up about things that appear to be missing. NWN 1 shipped with no crafting at all, no prestige classes, no in-built persistence and lots of other stuff missing which we now take for granted.

[Castian]

Scripted quests don't effect the world as a whole, they don't really add to character development and people either run them over and over again to get rewards, or do them once and forget about them.

[Castian]

Also I should add crafting is in in another form. Crafting of weapons and armour are in, using the feats and a workbench with proper materials.

[Juriel]

Scripted quests don't effect the world as a whole, they don't really add to character development and people either run them over and over again to get rewards, or do them once and forget about them.
How are DM quests different? I really don't see them alone causing new areas to be created as a reaction, and character development...now sorry, but that's something that mostly happens between characters when they do what they normally do, not when a power from on high happens to involve you in some little sidequest at this moment.

A personalized storyarc for a character is a neat thing to have, don't get me wrong, but I don't view that as character development, more than as just a fancy variation on normal session/adventure/event.

[chiXu]

Scripted quests get annihilated over and over again. "Let's go do the academy and get something from the machine!" Etc.

DM quests are very open and it's pretty much impossible to run over them because you don't know what to expect or where it's going and there's a lot more freedom with them, meaning there isn't going to be one penultimate result every time or a result based on a few scripts.

[Castian]

You should also keep in mind that the size of modules will be a lot bigger. People are going to have to build in an economical way for some time. So the DM client will certainly be out before people start giving out player housing or similar things as the limit on areas will be key.

[Trito]

No, there has to be new CONTENT there to feed plots and keep things fresh. This content can be new scripted quests, different money sinks, totally new features like customizable own housing...


Personally I'd rather play WoW (or some other mmorpg) than NWN persistant worlds if there aren't live DMs around. If I want scripted quest, different money sinks, an unchanging world filled with dungeons and new phat items that is...

The DM client was the thing that set NWN apart from being a mini-MMORPG.

How are DM quests different? I really don't see them alone causing new areas to be created as a reaction, and character development..

They did on BD. And caused serious character development. Perhaps you were too busy doing the scripted quests to notice :)


With the DM client you can do so much. Here are just a few examples:

-you could actually _talk_ to the players if someone breaks a rule of the server
-teleport players if they are stuck
-reset a quest or spawn NPCs
-do DM quests
-notice exploits and cheaters
-test NPCs
-see how players progress in dungeons, how the scripted quests work

[Martinus]

Personally I'd rather play WoW (or some other mmorpg) than NWN persistant worlds if there aren't live DMs around. If I want scripted quest, different money sinks, an unchanging world filled with dungeons and new phat items that is...

The DM client was the thing that set NWN apart from being a mini-MMORPG.
Precisely. Without DM Client, scripted NWN PWs become essentially ghetto versions of MMORPGs, only with less people and no need to pay per play.

[swanhilde]

Less people, no pay to play, and rife with rulebreaking weenies.

[Viconius]

http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=494509&forum=95&sp=90

As previously stated multiple times, we WILL release a DM client.

Guaranteed!

[Dolorous Edd]

As previously stated multiple times, we WILL release a DM client.

Guaranteed! Good. Hopefully, also true. But I've to say, might be they've stated it multiple times, but considering there's also two rather contradictory statements as well... Well, here's to hoping that they're not wearing their own arses for hats. The cynic in me would point out this little detail:
Shane K. DeFreest
Maverick Public Relations
*coughspinjobcough*

[Viconius]

I deliberately left that part out to avoid further debate :)

Guranteed is still pretty strong word, it might be that something happened internally and they have decided it is absolute must to have now. I do not know, but at least we can paste that a lot to forums if they breaktheir promise.

However, Warcry offers additional spin to the story: "This just in, from the community forums. Not only was it posted on the official forums but I heard it said, with my own ears at PAX."

http://nwn2.warcry.com/

[Rob Sollars]

*coughspinjobcough*

I think his actual job is to be a maverick PR guy who doesn't play by the rules but gets results, dammit. He's the Dirty Harry of public relations.

[Martinus]

Guranteed is still pretty strong word, it might be that something happened internally and they have decided it is absolute must to have now.
I have been bitching a lot on their forum recently, and so did a bunch of other people. :D

[Viconius]

I'm going to try and clarify some things so people can stop debating it. We have said for months that we intend to release a DM client with a patch either simultaneously or VERY soon after the release. Basically, its a first patch scenario situation.

To be as blunt and direct as possible. What the team has been non-committal about is what exactly the content of the DM client will be. The overarching goal for NWN2 has basically been "everything you liked about NWN, but more". So with that in mind we are looking at every aspect of the game and how we might expand upon it. The exact details of what the NWN2 DM client will be is still in development.

Will we release one? Yes! What exactly will it do? Wait and see. We take this element of NWN2 VERY seriously. So when we say there will be a DM client we mean just that.

This is a development team with an exceptional amount of integrity and loyalty to both this game, the D&D franchise, and especially the fans. My job is to be their voice to this community and in doing so people should remember that when I speak officially, it is indeed on behalf of Obsidian and the NWN2 team.

In closing there will be a DM client. Please be patient.

Thanks for your support, and we hope to see many of you this week at Dragon*Con!

-Shane
http://nwn2forums.bioware.com//forums/viewpost.html?topic=494509&post=4290347&forum=95&highlight=

So I guess that is it, There WILL be a DM client. Mart doesn't need to cancel his preorder.http://images.rper.org/forums/avatars/mini_eye.png

[swanhilde]

The Eye sees and knows all! :)

[Zimith]

Lack of the multitude of multiple customization options for clothing only gonna give a welcome break from the screwed up teens having a screwed up view on uniqueness. Let's hear a cheer for browns! Hope they screw plane touched as well. That said, I won't buy the game until I'm sure the client is in. As the perverted old fart I am, I still see NWN as PnP with graphics, so without a client... nah.

[swanhilde]

As the programmer that actually wrote the DM Client TDD, I guess I can give you a brief update on this subject that is so dear to some. :)

As always, I have to qualify it with the disclaimer that all this is subject to change, as there are always things beyond my power to control, but what I state here is how things stand at the moment.

Work on the DM Client will start near the time work on NWN2 finishes here (I think I'll take a short vacation somewhere in there =P).

The current plans are to implement the DM Client with 100% of the features the NWN1 one had with maybe some minor additions. Then we'll release it in the form of a patch as close as possible to when NWN2 is actually on the shelves.

Once that pass is finished, there are plans for more things on the DM Client. I have some ideas for it I think DMs are really going to love, but I can't really say anything else about it for now. :)

-Rich
http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=492990&forum=100&sp=105

[chiXu]

I figure it will actually be avaiable by the time everyone has had their fun with the OC and is starting to build new worlds so it should be out in good enough time :)

[swanhilde]

Words are fun to play with. "You'll get it when we tell you that you're ready for it," anyone? ;)

The DM client is being developed after we have a solid release candidate (which is still several weeks before release). People who need the DM client should have the DM client when they are actually able to use it. Right now we have to focus on the core game and toolset. Without those, there's not a solid foundation upon which PW makers can build.

For context, this is in response to someone telling them to delay the whole game.

http://nwn2forums.bioware.com/forums/viewdevposts.html?topic=496113&forum=95